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Understanding Limerence in the Context of Parental Alienation

In episode 149 of The Beyond The High Road Podcast, host Shelby Milford delves into the concept of limerence within the context of parental alienation. Shelby begins by urging listeners to review the podcast on Apple Podcasts and engage on Spotify. She then explains limerence, describing it as an uncontrollable obsession often influenced by limited or non-reciprocal contact with an object of affection, in this case, one's child. Shelby outlines symptoms, causes, and the interplay of attachment styles, emphasizing the impact of ongoing trauma and loss experienced by alienated parents. She also discusses the parallels between limerence and addiction, noting that addressing underlying emotions and traumas is key to overcoming it. Listeners are encouraged to converse about their personal experiences and consider seeking coaching or counseling as needed.

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Episode Transcript 

 You are listening to The Beyond The High Road Podcast with Shelby Milford, episode number 149. .   📍 Welcome to Beyond the High Road, a podcast dedicated to healing your heart and life following the grief of alienation. I'm your host, Shelby Milford, a twice certified life coach specializing in post-traumatic growth. If you're experiencing the effects of alienation and you're ready to heal, then this show is my love letter to you.

Stay tuned.

 Hi guys. What's happening today? Um, we are gonna be talking about, I don't think I have any announcements except for maybe, um, to, of course, if you are enjoying this show, all of you, I would really, really love it if you're getting something out of it.

If you could scoot on over to Apple Podcasts, even if you're listening on another uh, platform. Scoot over to Apple Podcast and write A couple sentences to show other parents like us, that, um, we're here and that you're getting something out of it. Okay. So you just go to Apple Podcasts. If you're not an Apple user, like you don't have any Apple products, you just go on the web to like the web player Apple Podcasts, find my show and then, uh, scroll down to the little purple. Write a review. Like on the show, main show page, it'll show you like, I don't know how many, 5, 6, 8 episodes. And if you keep scrolling, it'll say write a review and little purple writing and click on that.

And then it'll prompt you to enter your Apple id. And if you don't have it, then you just make one. You put your email and your name and whatever, and you can make up a name if you want. I don't care. And I don't think that they care. Um, and then you just write a little review. I would love that. And so would the other parents I think that are looking for us.

Okay. So thank you and advance for that. And in return, I will continue to hone in and get better and better at these episodes, delivering the message to you guys, um, a succinct and well-rounded way and also, too, let me know if you have any, um, requests for episodes. And actually after this episode today, I'm gonna have a little bit of call to action for you guys.

And that is just for you to go on another, uh, platform. If you are listening on Spotify or have a Spotify account, if you can go and let me know whether you want a continuation of this topic. Um, and I'll give you more of that information in, um, in a bit towards the end of the episode.

Okay. But today we're gonna visit a topic that for a while there was really popular in the mental health world of like social media, of YouTube, and. TikTok and all the places. It was a big thing there for, um, a year or so. Not that it's not, uh, still a concept, but I remember seeing a lot of the content coming out a couple years ago.

And then also I noticed to yesterday and today while doing some research on it, that everything, you know, there was a lot of information on it, but not in the context of alienation. And I came about it because, um, because of clients, because clients of mine, many, this is a very common. Experience state of mind that many parents can get into.

And that is, if you haven't already read, the title is Limerence. And in the context of alienation, it is shows up quite differently, uh, to a lesser degree. I guess it's not as outright is the romantic form or even the platonic form, you know, with other adults, friendships and whatever. So I wanted to discuss it because I think it's a really, I think it's an important topic if it's happening with you, which it could be so easy to, to fall into it.

I don't love the way that I said that, but you know what I mean. Yeah. I mean, if you're not aware of it, yeah. It could be very easy to fall into it. And so once you have the awareness, which I am providing for you guys today, then you awareness brings choices, right? You know, with the understanding and knowledge.

Then there's a way out. You're experiencing it, and if it's not working for you, limerence rarely works for anybody, but, um, that's up for you to decide if that's what's going on with you at all. So, like I said, I, um, many of my clients over the years have been bordering on like the longing that we all have, I think, um, as a result of being rejected from our children or alienated by the other parent, right?

We experienced this ambiguous grief and longing and lack of closure until we learn that we are in control of that, you know? And then some of us. We'll cry, sort of go over to the point where it starts to be intrusive, the thoughts, the patterns, and what have you, and it turns into a form of limerence.

Okay. And so that's what we're gonna discuss today. And so right now I'm gonna go through a list of symptoms, if you will, like sort of signs to tell if that it might be going on for you. And it does show up differently depending on your attachment style too. So, like, uh, well I'll get into it later, but just know that you might not have all the symptoms.

You may just have one or two because of your attachment style. And I'll outline that afterwards, like when I summarize this section here. Okay. So let me pull my notes up and let's get started. All right, so I'm gonna go through symptoms. The clues that it might be going on for you

 Little or No Reciprocity

the first clue that it might be going on for you is that there's   no, or little reciprocity, um, return of love when you extend it,

, and because of that, you have highs and lows, you've got mood swings. So like when they're reciprocating love or returning phone calls or whatever it is, or there's just little signs, your mood goes way up. And then if they're not, then your mood of course, tanks. Your, your emotional regulation is dependent on whether they're reciprocating love or not.

 

Obstacles

 Okay. One of the other things that shows up ways that you might know what's going on for you is that it always has to do limerence cannot take effect, or it cannot be if there aren't obstacles. . And obstacles should be all of our middle names. Obstacles, limited access. This kind of goes with the no reciprocity. 

Right. But whether that's the other parent that's standing in between y'all, um, which it always is, but like sometimes it's very obvious that it's the other parent and sometimes it's not so much. . obstacles always have to be present for you to reach the other person, and this case, your kiddo.

. And that is, almost number one for all of us we cannot gain access the way that quote unquote, normal parents or every other parent out there can, right? And so this can create, set the mood or the tone, the setting for limerence to take effect in your brain. Okay?

  Mood Is Regulated By THEM

Another, sign or clue is that you have mood swings, kinda like I just mentioned,

you have highs and lows, seemingly. , Unre, there's a, there's there's another way to say that. You know what I'm saying though? You do. You cannot seem to make sense of the highs and lows.

 Feels Inescapable

 It feels inescapable like, um, no matter how much you try to stop longing or obsessing or looping about them, you just can't seem to do it You just find yourself right back in the same kinds of thought, loops the same patterns, right? Because it has to do with your, the whole state of mind has to do with your reward system. And it ends up, it's an addiction.  It's a mental, addiction to thought patterns,

that you have. Developed over however long it's been since you've been alienated from your kids. And it could have actually started way before that, like in childhood because, well, we'll get into that in a minute. But, it feels inescapable  

You know it might not be possible, but you don't care

the next one is, is that you may be aware that it's not possible, um, for y'all to reunite right now or that it's not there on both sides. Like they're not feeling how you are. Like when you say I love you, they're not saying it back. And so though you know that they're not feeling it right now, you don't actually care. 

You still wanna try. Whether you try or not, it's a whole different story and we'll talk about that in a minute. But you still, it loops you in and you can't help it because you wanna make them see, you know what I'm saying? Um, and it's like obsessive, like it feels like you can't stop that, . 

Intense Longing

I already mentioned longing, right?

An intense form of longing is, the next one. And again, it feels less regulatable by you. I think that that word is not a word regulatable, regulatory, you know what I'm saying? You can't regulate it. You feel it feels a little bit, , chaotic in your mind, anxiety driven,  

other things, other relationships, other activities, hobbies, your work become less important and you may feel tired by those things and you wanna, you keep wanting to go back to thinking about belonging for and, , planning.

Your next time that you'll see your kids or the next attempt and all the things.  Some of these, just as I'm saying, these just know, like I said in the beginning, and I want to just keep reminding you, you may not have all of these symptoms or clues and also the intensity can vary. Okay. But the one thing that I wanna keep pointing out is that there's a difference between longing and ence.

In that longing is a slower sort of pain or feeling when you long for them. I know the feeling of longing for me does not have an anxiety behind it, does not have a push and like an uncontrollable nature about it inside of me. Does that make sense? Okay. And also the same, there's a difference too, between like ambiguous grief and limerence too.

And it's the same. Thing basically is that in Limerence you're feeling that intense anxiety push to want to get the reciprocity, you know? ,  So other things are less important, other activities, you sort of let them go by the wayside if you've ever been, and I know who I'm speaking with, so I know the answer is probably yes in a relationship with, uh, narcissist or a narcissistic family system.

Like you were in a relationship with somebody that maybe they weren't the narcissist, but again, we're all dealing with alienation, so whatever. Maybe they weren't the outright narcissist, but somebody else in their family was still, it's the same like, um, you know how you dropped everything? If you can relate to this, you dropped everything and you didn't even realize you were doing it.

Or maybe you did realize you were doing it, but it felt like a machine that was moving so fast that you didn't care that you were dropping all the other stuff. It's sort of. Same-ish with our children, if this is going on for you. Okay.    Because it's an addiction. They've done studies on this and the brain lights up like in the same exact areas as if, , somebody like in a love addiction or an addiction to any sort of chemical, any sort of substance, the brain lights up in the exact same areas in the state of mind of limerence, right?

   Put Them On A Pedstal

The next one is, is that many of us see them larger than life. We see our children idealize who they are, romanticize their character. Not that they're all not amazing, because I think my child is like perfect, you know? Um, and I can't say I worship her, but anything that she does could is fine, you know, because I love her so much.

But it's a little bit different than that. We romanticize like, or idealize all the things about them and we don't find the negative. And if we do find the negative, easy to dismiss because we're so hooked on making the the good qualities and the good. Uh, dynamics of y'all's relationship together. 

Like you have a hard time seeing the, the low times that y'all had because , you want to idealize all of the great things, right? So in Limerence, no matter what we are, no matter what your attachment style is,

no matter which symptoms that you're experiencing,  the one thing that I think is consistent throughout is that in Limerence we're putting that person up on a pedestal. They are up and we are sort of down, they are the, the goals,  

to the point where it's not even realistic anymore,

   And then sometimes, and I would say most of the time, again, probably depending on your attachment style. But for me, I made up this story in my head that was based, some of it was in reality, but then so much of it was not based in reality.

It wasn't far off I talked about it one time in one of the episodes last year, maybe I'll have to link it in the show notes where I was telling myself a lie about when my daughter would come home like that I was already ready for her to come home. And that. Things would be fine. And so I kept going back to court wanting to focus on her getting back home  because that's where she should be. 

Yet I wasn't actually prepped ready for her to be back home. So I was living in like this fantasy world about her coming home. And I knew somewhere inside of me that it wasn't gonna be a reality. And even if it came to fruition somehow, some way, I would've probably freaked out because I wasn't ready.

My house was a mess, you know? And like my life was a mess. And I was, that's when I was living as a hermit up in the hill. nothing was set up. I mean, her room was set up, but the, my life wasn't set up for her, you know, like, and my finances were definitely not set up to, have her in my home, and care for her as I did before this all happened.

Right. For a lot of reasons. Yeah. It was really, if I, I, my finances probably would've been fine or close to fine if I had not gone through all the court stuff. But still, I was living in a fantasy world about it. I was telling myself stories about it and, , living in this world,, to keep myself feeling safe about the whole situation.

So that I didn't have to come to terms with the reality that. I wasn't ready for her to come and that if she came that it would likely be a mess. At least I would be a mess. I would've been frantic. . Some people too, love to be in the fantasy world of idealizing and thinking about what might be if when they come home, how it's gonna be.

But then when they do come home, this has happened with, I can think of at least a handful of clients when they do come home, it feels anti climactic they come home and because they've been living in this idealized world of how it will be. And there'll be roses and puppy dog tails and unicorns and.

Puff pastries. I don't know all the beautiful things y'all would be skipping away and playing board games and whatever. And then they come home and reality hits and it feels really like, ho hum. Like, oh, this is it. This is where it is. It's because you've idealized, eh. Right. And the stories that you've been telling yourself throughout the whole thing, it's not based in reality.

Right. Um, and it makes sense why you do it, and I did it too, but it's really helpful if you've got any of these, those, those are all the clues, the symptoms. If any of these sounds familiar to you or like you, they resonate with you, then you might wanna listen through so that you can figure out what to do about it because, well, I'll get there in a minute.

   So talking about the attachment styles, usually, but not always.

NCE happens with , insecure attachment styles. That can happen with a secure attachment style.  It can absolutely, because it's just a state of mind, right? It doesn't have to be that you have some mental illness or that you are unregulated in your emotions and the way that you live in the every day, you could be completely fine in all the areas and still have this fantasy world that you're living in, right?

So a world that's not based in reality because it feels safer to you, there's nothing wrong with you that you've done it or that you're there. Okay? I always want to. Articulate that because, I think we get beat up so much by the alienating parent and then also maybe your children as well.

And then we have the world judging us and , you know, we feel like sometimes we're in a, sitting in a fishbowl, it feels unfair and it feels very isolating and that is not what, why I am bringing this stuff to you. And I'm sure that you guys already know that, especially if you listen to some other of the episodes.

I'm really wanting to, um, bring this up for you. And I would be just like all the other episodes, especially last week's episode. It would be really helpful for you too, if you can like, take down any sort of ego or, , defensiveness, if you notice any defensiveness. With any of this stuff, then that is a clue that you might wanna take a deeper look into it if you can, when you're ready.

You know, any defensiveness usually means with anything that we're talking about. Anytime somebody accuses you of something, anytime, something, whatever it's your first clue that something might be going on in that area. Whoever's saying it to you, somebody's onto something for you, which is really, really, helpful because the more that we become aware of all of our styles, of our states of mind, all of the things, obviously, then the more choices that you have in your world.

Right? But when we deny it, Nope, that's not me. That's not me. Nope. That's all them. You shut yourself into a corner with no choices to make. Anyway. Um, so

attachment styles. It mostly, it shows up in insecure attachment styles, but doesn't have to, and by the way, just know that you can change your attachment style too. You don't if those aren't set in stone. I have, over the years as well where I was at one point, I think I lean more towards the avoidant attachment style.

Now if it's anything besides secure attachment, then I think I might go back to avoidant. Um, but yeah, anyway, liens can show up in all the attachment styles, but the most common are in the insecure attachment,  

so in the anxious attachment, you may crave intense emotional connection and you may fear, uh, abandonment, if that's you, then you would really be craving and focusing on, the next time that you were gonna be in contact with them, and the signs that they might be longing for you too,  right?

You'll take any small little clue or hint. Sometimes it's the a post that they put on Instagram or, if they put an extra exclamation in their text back to you, right? Or a heart. You take those little tiny little nuggets and you make those everything for your future, you read into all the little signs , you're, hanging on every word, you know, in the anxious. Attachment style.    Now on your avoidant. If you're avoidant you may find that hanging out in Limerence feels way safer than actual intimacy vulnerability. So like maybe you make up the stories in your mind.

It's kind of like, I was just explaining with me back in the day stories about how things, why things got here the way that they are, number one, and then how things were going to pan out.  And I would tell that story to whoever would listen. I mean, I wasn't really talking to that many people, but whoever I did talk with, I really was leaning hard on this story that once I get to court everything will be fine.

Like the judge will hear everything will be great and she'll be back home with me. I remember telling my, my two neighbors that when I moved into the house on the hill, um, I was heavily relying on this ideal based, not in reality, I didn't know it then, but I really wanted to focus on that more than I wanted to focus on.

My own business that I needed to take care of in order to ready myself. I just wanted to live in the fantasy world. And that seemed safer than actually turning around and looking at why I was there. Like why, how did we get here? Me being alienated, having to go to all the court and stuff and all, whatever.

I didn't wanna look at myself. That was like way painful. And I didn't wanna consider the idea that maybe my daughter wasn't.  This is another one that I see a lot in, um, alienation. Uh, this is, uh, nuanced quite a bit and it gets into it. So I, I want to visit this briefly, but just know that

this also, this subject deserves more context,  so as a parent. Maybe when it just starts out, like alienation just starts when your kiddo is still younger, where they're not able to articulate, put words to what they're experiencing. And many kids could be adult kids and not be able to put words to what they're experiencing.

But I'm specifically speaking about, littler kids or like through grade school area. We want to romanticize and like, um, make in our minds, it feels easier to say that they can't express themselves or they don't know how, because the alienating parent has gotten to them, which is always the case. But sometimes we downplay what the kids, even if they're surface feelings, surface thoughts, surface feelings because of what the alienating parent has said to them, how they've swayed them.

Coerce them. We don't wanna acknowledge what they're saying or how they're feeling if they are at all, because we wanna assume that of course they love us. Of course they wanna come home right now because that feels better. Then wanting to even consider the idea that maybe they don't feel comfortable coming home.

Now, whether or not that's because the alienating parent is telling them things, that's another point entirely. But we don't wanna say to ourselves at this moment, they don't wanna come home right now. We don't wanna go there 'cause it's too painful.

So we'd rather say, well, that's what they're saying right now. But I know that they wanna come home, which is most of the time true. But I think it's helpful to.

Acknowledge the nuances there for you. Um, so that you don't build on the story that your kids, no matter what, if somebody asks them away from the alienating parent, if they wanted to go home, that kid would say, yes, I need to go home to mom or dad, the you, you know, because you might be telling yourself a story and you that story might end up causing you a lot of pain later when you find out from whoever Joe Schmoe, that kid actually said even to them that they don't wanna come home.

Does that make sense? I hope that does.

The reason why it matters here, because we all know, I guess I should, I think it this now that I just said that it deserves the explanation. The reason why it makes a difference here for y'all to recognize that that ence may be happening or that you're telling yourself an alternate reality, , is because  yes, we know that they're being coerced, right?

If we're in alienation, they have been coerced across the board, And if they weren't being coerced, then your kids of coed, because it's natural for kids, children to always. Basically idealize their parents and look to them for protection and love and all the things, knowledge and everything. Right? 

And so when it doesn't happen in that, that triangle is sort of reversed on you it's not natural and it feels wrong of course, right. But it's really helpful for you to notice when you are fibbing to yourself, um, about their current feelings or thoughts because you could end up building on this limerence or some other sort of, um, maladaptive mindset or concept.

You know, like the way of.

Some other maladaptive coping skill, right? Which could cause problems for you later. Limerence usually happens.    No, limerence always happens because there is something deeper going on with us that we don't wanna recognize, and I think that that is the key point to this whole episode,  right? When you're experiencing Limerence, it would be very helpful for you if you notice any of this, it seems like even remotely familiar for you, or like it strikes a chord for you,   ask yourself, why does this state of mind this place that I go to, why does it feel better for me?

And what am I trying to avoid?  Which seems like overly simple to just ask that question. 'cause you'll, I think I probably would've said to myself back in the day, like, well, if, if I knew the answer to that question, then I probably wouldn't be sitting in Limerence, you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't be obsessing about my kid or, or making stories up in my mind that are kind of counterfactual.

You know, I would obviously know the answer. But when you ask yourself, just hang tight because your body oftentimes knows much quicker and, and is onto you than what's going on in your brain. 'cause when you're in limerence, it shuts down your prefrontal why, or it numbs it quite a bit.

You know, it's still there, you're, it's working. But a lot of times we'll argue our way out of situations and things

because it's a mental addiction, because the second that you, if you guys have heard any of my, , habits episodes, then you know that the second that you have a drink, go shopping, start the, the habit system going it starts to dull your prefrontal cortex so that reward system can get its hits of dopamine and the whole adrenaline .

All of that cascade of good feeling chemicals, right? That your brain releases, it has to shut your prefrontal cortex down

so that you can still remain feeling good so that you can complete the cycle. You know what I'm saying? And that's what actually reinforces the whole habit to begin with. So  I don't even know where I was 'cause I went off of my notes, which is what I've been trying not to do lately.  But I will say, and we go to the precursors.  I've got four prerequisites

and this could be limerence not just with your kid, but with a romantic love partner or potential love partner, right? It starts off as a crush and then you idealize them and maybe you get obsessed and blah, blah blah. Alright? Same across the board. Number one is a painful loss, painful life event that has happened in the last few years.

Hello? What do we all sit again in alienation? Right? We definitely have that prerequisite, right? We experience loss on an ongoing  basis.  The second one is trauma, depression, A DHD being an empath, all of those can put you susceptible, I guess, um, to developing ence for somebody else.

Okay. A DHD is huge for us because many of us, I don't wanna get into the, all the nooks and crannies of this, especially because I'm not a doctor, right? And I'm not a even a licensed counselor. But a DHD and ence can go hand in hand because many of us with A DHD, um, have had previous trauma in our lives, like childhood trauma, and I don't know.

And I think that they don't know whether A DHD is directly related to childhood trauma or not. Some people believe that you're born with it. Some people say that it's due to, uh, to childhood trauma, like ACEs, you know? Um, and then some people say it could be both, which it doesn't really, it's neither here nor there for now.

But with A DHD, we can get stuck on something sort of like an obsession, mental obsessions thought loops, very common for, for neurodivergent people, especially in A DHD, Limerence is basically an uncontrolled obsession. Sometimes it shows up outwardly, right? Especially with anxious attachment styles, and sometimes with avoidant attachment styles, it's more of a silent ance where we're doing it internally.

We're longing for all of this affection and reciprocity, but we're so scared, fearful of being rejected more that we keep it quiet and we don't want to put ourselves out there and get vulnerable. So we keep, there's all this buildup inside of us. Does that make sense? So we don't show up to our kids like needy, like single white female or anything.

I don't think that any of us have to do that in order to be experiencing limerence. You know? Um, we can be doing it on a very low key, but notice how you're feeling inside like that anxious, like you just can't stop. And it's actually exhausting. Like it's, doesn't feel exhausting while the dopamine all that, good feeling chemicals are releasing in your brain, then you're getting a high.

But in the end it's super exhausting because it's a rollercoaster of emotions and you're not regulating them. You're not able to regulate them, you know? So, okay, back to the prerequisites. Um, doesn't have to be all of these, but just some of 'em. But I already know that if you're an alienated parent, you're listening to this episode or to this podcast in general, that loss check we've all experienced.

And trauma, depression, A DHD, EMPA being an empath, I think. The trauma part and maybe depression is pretty much all of us. Right. At some point. Depression depressive episodes, right? .  Number three is attachment wounds. Okay. Things that have happened in childhood, right. And maybe you're still holding onto some unprocessed trauma, which I think is most people in general, not just alienated parents. 

And the last one I have here, and I think there's probably more, um, that's where I stopped 'cause it was enough for me to, to plead my case with you guys, is that you're bored and that you miss social contact because you feel isolated from society and from your world. Like your support group, support, community. 

Right? All of us. So Limerence is, I think, uh, I don't wanna say it's unavoidable because that's not the case. Some people just don't experience it. But I think on the spectrum somewhere, many of us have experienced this, right? It's not some, uh, just I want you to know too, that if this is not, uh, a diagnosis by any means, it's a state of mind.

There's no chemical, uh, difference between our, somebody that's in liens and somebody that isn't now the cascade of chemicals that gets released. Everybody can have that, right? Just that's reward system. But there's nothing, there's no chemical imbalance is what I mean to say. it's just basically a, a maladaptive coping mechanism that we adopt and step into.

I guess I. When we start to idealize or fantasize about contact with our children because it's been limited, right? Go back up to what? The beginning, the symptoms of it that I was talking about.

Limerence does not happen. I don't think it does anyway. It doesn't occur when the other person is equally giving or is even overly giving more than you are. Limerence happens when we perceive an obstacle standing in between us and the liran object in this case, your children. I'm not calling your children objects.

It's just the way it's described. Okay. So because we end up sort of objectifying our children in this scenario. When we're in this state of mind, we don't mean to, it's just what happens.

So even though, um, it's not, you know, a DSM, it's not a diagnosis. Oftentimes we will, people will get misdiagnosed

as like BPD, like borderline personality. Some people get misdiagnosed because of the constant need for attention, affection, right? But you may not constantly need attention, affection, and all the other symptoms that come with limerence. You may not necessarily need that in your everyday life, but when it comes to this one thing during this period of your life, or what if it's happened in your past?

Like it did for me, I was in a state of Li Limerence probably on several different occasions, right? Extended periods of time where I would, um. Be living kind of in my own little fantasy world about what was gonna happen with me and my daughter and how she felt about me and what our relationship was and what it was gonna be.

You know, it was a safe fantasy for me to live in. Um, safe meaning that I, I, at the time felt safe, but actually did the opposite for me and kept me, um, at a standstill. And actually maybe even less than a standstill maybe. It, it, it kept, took me back a few steps because I wasn't acknowledging what was really going on with me, and I wasn't able to grow from that point because I was too busy telling myself stories, you know?

But anyway, so you could be misdiagnosed. Some people are misdiagnosed with BPD with severe depression. Um, I have a couple clients that I, I kind of suspect anyway, they're ha on medication for depression and for, uh, other things. And it could be that they're in a prolonged, like this state of limerence too.

I, again, no doctor and I would never. Really tell them outright because that's not my place to anyway. OCD is another one that people get diagnosed when they're in the state of limerence, um, codependent, , limerence, can really, present as codependence.

But it may be that you are, again, that you are feeling this limerence towards your kid, kiddo, or maybe a romantic partner or somebody else. But all in all other areas of your life, things are fine and you don't feel that you need somebody else's, uh, attention, affection, reciprocity, in order to be okay.

It's just this one area, So I think that that's really important to point out with all, all of this. Just know that just because you, this is happening for you, it doesn't mean that otherwise that, like that you're stuck here. You don't have to be. And knowledge is key right Now become more aware for yourself how it's showing up for you.

And then you can make the choice, 

 to let go of it, you have to    dare to feel. Really, I think like any other addiction, I learned this from my mentor now is that when we are over anything, over drinking, overeating, over shopping, all of the over anything, it's an under feeling problem, right? It's also overthinking. Same thing when if you are an overthinker and you're constantly creating scenarios in your head and running different ones to see which one would work. And if you're wondering what other people are thinking and are they thinking this or are they thinking that, should I do this? 

You know what I'm saying? This is because you're not allowing yourself to feel the emotion that's asking to be felt, you know? the same thing here with Limerence. Limerence is a way to live in a altered reality to cause you to feel safe and. Let reality pass you by so that you can, not grow basically, like it's feels unfamiliar and weird and wrong for you and not stable.

So instead you go into this fantasy world and also, you know, we, the maladaptive behavior of going into this fantasy world, many of us have learned that as children because, um, maybe your parents didn't, they weren't there for you, or they weren't home, or you were ignored, or there's a lot of different scenarios that can happen there.

So you as a child, learned to go into the fantasy world about what your parents were like or what your life was like as a, an adaptive. Coping mechanism back in the day that was adaptive for you. Like, they're not there for me, so I need to self soothe, so I'm going to go into this fantasy world. And it caused you to feel safe and loved brought attention to, and, , supported But now, years later, if it's sort of left over and now you find yourself in limerence. Now it's probably become maladaptive because it's holding you back from other things in your life or other possibilities that you could create for yourself. That's the thing is that when we're sitting in Lith, you're sitting in like in a, in a holding pattern.

If you ask me, you're, you're stuck in this, like you're on a merry-go-round, uh, or even rollercoaster of highs and lows and all this, it's a distraction. And so meanwhile, life is passing you by and all of the possibilities. That you're not even visiting for your future are also floating away.  I don't mean to instill a, some sort of time scarcity to you or anything, but maybe it's just an eye-opener that like, when I'm in limerence, when I'm idealizing, when I'm fantasizing about something that's not yet reality or is maybe not ever gonna be reality when I'm telling myself stories about what my kid's feeling in a hopeful way.

So that we're again, kind of like last week basing our happiness or our, our ability to be happy on what they are doing and what they're gonna do in the future. Like counterfactual scenarios that you're running, you are stalling your life  and so that's why I think it would be helpful.

For you to look at to keep you now, get some momentum behind you and keep you moving forward. so limerence is a way to distract you from whatever or needs to be addressed. Okay? Um, so in order to let go of it, you have to feel, you have to dare to feel whatever's actually happening for you.

And so that means that you have to ask yourself questions, right? And allow trust that your body will know and that your brain will follow. And it may take you posing the questions to yourself, many times each time the a ence episode, if you will, comes up for you. So when you notice that you're fantasizing about or needing, with anxious attachment style.

It'll come up for you. Like for my clients, I see this where they're like hanging on every last word. And they called me. They called me. Oh my gosh. And then they'll be so high. And usually those clients, even though they're supposed to schedule weekly, if they're on a high, because kid has this, is happens a lot.

Um, more than I'd like to acknowledge sometimes. But , the kid will call like, and maybe they hang out all weekend, let's just say. And I will not hear a peep from my client for the next week, sometimes longer. Or they're like, I don't need this.

I don't need any coaching, because everything is great, right? And I don't mean to be laughing at their expense, but it is interesting, fascinating, dynamic to watch where everything they're, flying high and then. Once the attention, stops coming, they hit a low and I still won't hear from them.

Many times, I'll either hear from them that they're anxious attached, Or I, they'll avoid, right? And then I won't hear from 'em until they pop back up again on the other side of their, their low. And sometimes I'll hear from them like, look, . They're not reciprocating, everything was fine.

I don't know what I said. I don't know what I did. How do I get them back? What did I do wrong? I thought things were going great and I thought we were repairing our relationship and then nothing. Right? But in order for you to feel something, feel good again in your mind, you just need them to reach back out or you need them to respond, you need them to whatever, say that they love you or all the things.

This, I feel like is the most disruptive. cycle that I see a lot of parents go through. And so, um, if that's you noticing it, just noticing that it's happening. Oh, wait a second. I see that my moods right now overall are highly dependent on how my kid is responding or if they're responding and if they're not responding and I am down in a lull.

Sometimes you notice it and sometimes you don't. It really just depends on you and your history and how you work otherwise. But sometimes you could not even notice it and be like, why am I in such a bad mood? You know, I just feel ugh and I'm tired and I'm dragging. But the second that the kid does call, you're up and all the emotions are going and you feel fantastic or like anxious and alive then and wanting to do all the things and you feel speedy

like you're on like some sort of high, this is a clue that you might be in Limerence. Okay. Um. Basically

your emotions meter is in the pocket of your kid or kids when you're in the state. So, uh, really good to notice that

with avoidant type. It, it shows up kind of similar, but either way, the, the key, um, underlying sort of tone with it is that it relies, limerence relies on this buildup of tension. From not seeing them or feeling rejected by them. Feels like, Ooh, I'm like anxious.

And why aren't they calling me back? Why didn't they say hi to me at the game? Or like, whatever, and it's there, but if you're avoidant or shy or whatever, you'll keep it all inside, right? It will not show you will be stone faced, right? But on the inside, you're totally freaking out, right? Um, with anxious, you might pour out to somebody and maybe even your kids.

It just, what depends, right? So the tension builds up when they're rejecting you or not reciprocating, not recognizing you, right? And then when they call, when they whatever, can make contact with you, then all of the tension releases and that's when it's like, hi, I can breathe again. Right? And then the whole cycle starts over again.

it's disruptive. And it feels. Very out of control for you. Your experience of life is highly dependent on them and how their mood is, which is awful because your barometer, or whatever you wanna call it, it's always outside of you and it's not predictable , I mean, you're not grounded in those moments or in this whole mindset, right?

Your, your grounding is, is is external. So, and we talk about this a lot. We don't put the word ence on it, like in the past episodes, but, it could be what's going on for you, and in which case going back to what you have to do to get out of it. You have to be willing to feel and to recognize it and not beat yourself up for having been there.

Because it makes sense that you would be experiencing limerence given the trauma that might be still holding onto, , given the circumstances of alienation, it makes a hundred percent sense that you would experience this, right?

All four of my little prerequisites.,. I clicked every single one of those, it would almost be odd if I didn't experience larin at some point,

You have to be willing to go through a period of withdrawal of not having. Highs and lows because the highs and lows themselves are an addiction too.  The whole thought pattern, habit of like looping, there will be certain things that trigger it for you, if you will. You guys know, if you know me, I that word, but it's the most succinct way, easy way to say what I'm talking about right now.

There will be certain patterns or certain circumstances that sort of bring it into play for you more than others. Um, and so you have to be willing to be aware of it and then not react to those quote unquote triggers when they come up for you again and be able to talk yourself through it without reaching for some other numbing agent, whether that's doesn't have to be drinking or some sort of substance.

It could be lots of things. Limerence being one of them. Limerence, if you ask me, I don't know, I could be wrong, but I feel like that Limerence is a nominee agent because it's an addiction. You know, and then you have to understand, and this is the, the, the point too I wanted to bring home, and I forgot to even write notes about it, is   📍 📍 that grief will follow.

Like when you stop this pattern of if and when you stop this pattern of limerence grief will follow, um, the stopping of the pattern. Because now you're able to, like I was just saying, be willing to feel. Now you're able to feel and see the situation for what it is.

And  that's not fun, right?   I mean, I today would pick grief over the limerence any day of the week because in the Limerence I was just lying to myself, you know, protectively, it's like this weird. Protection that we do for ourselves, that actually puts us out in the elements more and makes us un more unaware.

We're sort of like a baby deer out in the elements when we're in Limerence because even though so many of us don't want to get vulnerable in a state of Limerence, especially when we're talking about avoidant attachment style, what we're doing is putting ourselves, at risk of lots of vulnerability that we're not even seeing,

because we're blinding ourselves to it when we're in limerence. So you have to understand in order to, to let go of it, that you have to understand that grief will follow. And grief is okay. I know that you guys know that especially if you're this far into the episode, then I know that you get that,

so some of the other, things that might show up for you in ence is just notice that you might have a tendency to go to counterfactual thinking, right? Upwards or downwards counterfactual thinking like you might blame yourself for things that you've done in your past. Like if I only would have, then our relationship would be beautiful right now if I didn't do blah, blah, blah, then our relationship could have been this.

So you go to the past. To make up a story about what could have happened to, to explain your future, about what should be coming up. Do you know what I'm saying? So it's not, you're never really living in the present It's, you're in a fantasy world, you know?

So, you're in a place of counter protection, which I've already talked about. You are, um, living in a state of depravity when you're here because you're always wanting for longing for something that isn't going to be, at least not in the way that you're telling yourself in your mind. So you're living in a state of

self punishment actually. You know, because you're telling yourself that it should be a certain way and it's not, Because you're afraid actually of the true answer. And so you would rather live in this fantasy world which just stunts your life and keeps you, like I said, in this holding pattern, So, just notice if this is what's going on for you.

You could just have. Some of the symptoms, and they could be very minimal, but even the minimal, it would be really helpful for you to notice so that you don't build on that and create some other world that you're not even.

Once you, it becomes so normal for you, the ideas when you're in limerence that go on in your head become beliefs because you've practiced them so much that it brings on, uh, an extended, prolonged state of, delusion, really. And so it's that much harder in the end to get yourself out of it because you've already made these thoughts and ideas, such running beliefs for you,

and so it will be hard for you to connect in the future with other relationships, other people in your life maybe even commit to, uh, different opportunities. Job. Social connection opportunities, all the things, because you have been so wrapped up in this fantasy world of how things should be with your kiddos,

Just be kind to yourself as always. Just be kind to yourself and develop some compassion around why this started for you, , why it makes sense that this started for you, and that it's okay that it has, it's not like a runaway train. You can stop this yourself. You are fully capable of interrupting this state of mind and these thought habits that accompany it.

Okay? Um, a hundred percent capable and. If you need any help, of course, always email me or schedule a consult with me. You get your first one is free, so I'm happy, more than happy to help you. Even if you don't want future coaching, that's okay. If you wanna help with a specific situation or issue that's going on in your head and you feel like you don't have control of it right now.

Because in Limerence too, it feels like, like I said, it feels like a runaway train. You feel like you cannot stop this kind of thinking because of the reward system factor and the addiction and all of the, adrenaline that gets released when you're in , the state of mind, right?

Especially on the highs.

So if you guys are interested in me doing an episode on Limerence as it pertains to romantic partners or other, um, adult relationships, like within your lifetime. You know, like for me, I know Limerence showed up, especially well with both, probably both of the main relationships that I had, both guys I was married to Rin definitely showed up, um, in and out throughout those relationships, especially the second guy, not my dad's or my daughter's.

Dad, but the other guy that you guys know about, I was really stuck in that state of limerence for a long time, living in a fantasy world about who I was with. And it was very intrusive and seemed like I could not get ahold of it. I was living in an altered state, and so that could have had effect.

That second relationship had a huge effect on my relationship with my daughter and the outcomes of our court cases and whatever, as a result of NCE and my inability at the time. I can't say inability, but yeah, I would say inability because I wasn't aware.

Like when you're not aware of it, you can't blame yourself. For me, I don't blame myself. I do go back and like, ugh, gosh, how could I not see, you know, but I don't blame myself about it. It's just like, please just know that it's until you know, it is uncontrollable for you,

so don't beat yourself up or not. Anyway, if you do want, um, for me to do an episode on that, 'cause it could have affected, uh, the way you showed up in the relationship with the person who's alienating your kids from you. Or it could show up like in relationships now for you, and it could be affecting your relationship with your kids too.

So even though it's kind of away from alienation, it's also really not at all away from alienation to talk about limerence with romantic partners. Okay. So I'm gonna put a poll on Spotify. That was the long way of saying that. I'm gonna put a poll on Spotify and ask, you know, like a yes or no to that so that I know whether or not to follow this episode up with another one.

Um, in the future. I mean, it won't be next episode, but it'll be soon in the soon near future. Okay. Alright, y'all, I'm gonna go 'cause I just talked, talked, talked to my face off, and it's the day that I'm re releasing this, so I have to now go and edit and release it. Okay, bye.

00:00 Introduction and Announcements

02:47 Understanding Limerence in the Context of Alienation

05:29 Symptoms and Signs of Limerence

16:29 Attachment Styles and Limerence

21:20 The Impact of Limerence on Perception and Reality

24:56 Addressing Limerence and Moving Forward

26:13 Understanding Limerence and Its Effects on the Brain

27:11 Prerequisites and Susceptibility to Limerence

27:51 ADHD and Limerence: The Connection

28:36 Attachment Styles and Limerence

29:35 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Limerence

31:06 Recognizing and Addressing Limerence

33:04 The Impact of Limerence on Relationships

34:35 Breaking Free from Limerence

44:47 The Role of Grief in Overcoming Limerence

48:57 Final Thoughts and Seeking Help

#PARENTALALIENATIONRECOVERY #PODCASTFORALIENATEDPARENTS #ALIENATEDMOM #ALIENATEDFATHER #LIMERENCE #LONGING